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France enters the Matrix

France enters the Matrix

Posted Feb 11, 2019 20:04 UTC (Mon) by philipstorry (subscriber, #45926)
Parent article: France enters the Matrix

I like the solution to AV requirements. Enterprises have very different priorities to the ones that security and privacy folks have - and I can't say that any side is absolutely right.
That solution seems like an elegant and reasonable way of doing it.


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France enters the Matrix

Posted Feb 12, 2019 15:20 UTC (Tue) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (7 responses)

That's pretty much a direct port of the AV mechanisms smtp servers and web proxies use (in fact I'd be really surprised, if the AV function was not performed by systems initially designed for use with http(s) proxies).

Replace "Matrix" with proxy or "middlebox" and you'd have the usual people complaining it is an architectural mistake and scanning should be done by endpoints.

France enters the Matrix

Posted Feb 12, 2019 16:06 UTC (Tue) by Arathorn (guest, #101018) [Link] (4 responses)

Yes, the AV scanner is backed by ICAP, which is the standard built for scanning contents in web proxies etc.

However, the novelty here is that unlike HTTP or SMTP, the scanning is done in a manner that works in an E2E-encrypted-by-default network. I guess the equivalent for email would be:

* Have your MTA strip off attachments and store them in IMAP or some other content repository
* Refuse to let MUAs access those attachments other than by proxying them through an AV scanner
* If the attachment is PGP encrypted, then the MUA has to hand the scanner the encrypted keys to that particular attachment so that the scanner can do its job.
* The scanner runs entirely operationally isolated from the MTA.

As far as I know, nobody has ever built such a system for email, probably because E2E encryption is far from commonplace on email, and doesn't lend itself to scanning specific attachments (given PGP acts on the whole envelope, rather than each attachment being separately encrypted).

It's worth noting that whilst we're going to spec the API for doing this dance (i.e. formalise the stuff in https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-content-scanner#api and add it to the matrix spec), this API will of course categorically *not* be compsulsory. It's just providing a hook for content scanning for those users (e.g. France) for whom it's a requirement, such that Matrix clients can perform such scanning in a consistent way.

It's an interesting debate as to whether this should be a network service in the first place, or performed clientside - for France, they have so many different AV services and requirements in play that limiting themselves only to clientside scanning is a no-starter.

France enters the Matrix

Posted Feb 13, 2019 13:18 UTC (Wed) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link] (1 responses)

And to avoid singling out Chromium devs

https://news.slashdot.org/story/19/02/04/1430259/mozilla-...

Browsers will fight to the death to protect website interests (advertising flows), but do not care about protecting user interests, and define mechanisms that let users deploy whatever protection engine they choose. And we all know the Internet is such a safe place and websites can be trusted not to push any malware user-side.

France enters the Matrix

Posted Feb 23, 2019 17:07 UTC (Sat) by notriddle (subscriber, #130608) [Link]

How is that comparable? It only affected Avast products, not all intercepting HTTPS proxies, and, based on what I'm reading in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1523701, it's an actual bug, not an antifeature like the Chrome proposal. This isn't Firefox removing the ability to add your own root cert, this is Firefox bumping sqlite, causing a mismatch between its version and Avast's version that led to a corrupted cert database.

France enters the Matrix

Posted Feb 15, 2019 14:47 UTC (Fri) by gebi (guest, #59940) [Link] (1 responses)

> * If the attachment is PGP encrypted, then the MUA has to hand the scanner the encrypted keys to that particular attachment so that the scanner can do its job.

It would be awesome if it would support to give out just the ephemeral keys for this particular attachment and not just sending the keys of the user.

France enters the Matrix

Posted Feb 15, 2019 19:39 UTC (Fri) by rahvin (guest, #16953) [Link]

Isn't that exactly what's described in the article? Matrix gives the AV scanner the decryption key for that single attachment only, not for the session, not for the conversation and not for the user.

France enters the Matrix

Posted Feb 12, 2019 16:22 UTC (Tue) by nybble41 (subscriber, #55106) [Link] (1 responses)

> That's pretty much a direct port of the AV mechanisms smtp servers and web proxies use .... Replace "Matrix" with proxy or "middlebox" and you'd have the usual people complaining it is an architectural mistake and scanning should be done by endpoints.

The problem with middleboxes has nothing to do with the way they communicate with AV services. Why not reuse that interface?

The main problem with MitM proxies—even when done "properly", with a private CA root certificate installed on the endpoints—is that it defeats all the security measures built in to the clients by replacing the original server's credentials with fake credentials generated by the proxy. The MitM proxy is also in a position to tamper with the content, not just passively observe the traffic and block content that triggers the filter. This could be done better if the client and the proxy worked together (share ephemeral decryption keys with a trusted and authenticated proxy but still require end-to-end encryption and authentication) but so far no one has implemented that.

The Matrix system does not suffer from these flaws since it only shares the files themselves with the scanning service. The service can't impersonate arbitrary clients or modify file content, and it can't see anything other than the files to be scanned.

France enters the Matrix

Posted Feb 12, 2019 19:18 UTC (Tue) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link]

Middleboxes work that way due to client design choices.

It would have been trivial to add a signature layer to https (much easier than the changes in http/2 or 3) to make sure content could not be tampered with, just blocked if the scanning detected evil things.

It would also have been trivial to separate cleanly the certificate used by the middlebox, from the certificate of the original website (after all as soon as you relay signatures, you can check securely those signatures have been generated by the private key of the original website, you do not need the same cert on the middlebox).

But, none of it can happen without client cooperation, and browser people hate anything that can filter what cloud giants intend to feed to users. So they've been quietly making sure the only setup they support is impersonating websites via certificate hijacking, while complaining publicly middleboxes are terminally broken.

Lately they've started interfering with filtering extensions that run within the browser
https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=896...


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